Small Fish Eat Big Fish: Alan Turnbull's Rise in the MSP Industry

From a simple door-to-door salesman to the heights of the UK's tech industry. Meet  Alan Turnbull of Kick ICT Group Ltd, whose meteoric rise from a civil servant to MSP industry leader is nothing short of inspiring. With a candid recount of his early days, Alan takes us behind the scenes of his strategic move into the tech world, the game-changing acquisition of Castle Computer Services, and how mentorship fueled his ascent. 

This episode isn't just a narrative of one man's journey; it's a masterclass in scaling a business. Journeying through the critical role MSPs play, Alan unveils the art and science behind strategic acquisitions that transformed his small IT service company into a £30 million powerhouse. From maintenance contracts to office refurbishments, Alan's insights on client and staff retention, as well as preserving a brand during mergers, are a goldmine for any entrepreneur looking to expand their empire. 

Alan also outlines his plans for the future, including his well-deserved golf retirement. Yet, it's his take on automation, AI, and the economic trends influencing company acquisitions that will have you pondering the future of the tech landscape long after the episode ends. Don't miss out on the wisdom and wit of a man who has navigated the tumultuous waters of tech entrepreneurship and emerged victorious.

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Every episode is packed with the valuable insights, practical strategies, and inspiring anecdotes that lead our guests to the transformative moment when they knew….. Now, that's it.

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:20

Any acquisition we were looking at. We had a bit of a footprint we were looking for in a recipe. We liked Microsoft and we liked Dynamics. That wasn't the end of it. The game changer for us was a. We acquired a couple of really small. There were about 40 clients each in Microsoft Dynamics partners. The big difference for us was we acquired a company called Castle Computer Services and it was always referred to as Small Fish and Big Fish. So we were kind of three million by then. They were nine million and we bought it. And then that kind of change that gave us a real, that made us get notice in the marketplace of.

Speaker 2: 1:15

Group Sales Director and part of the Asking Board of Directors at KICCT. Kicct is one of the UK's leading information and communications technology businesses, comprised of five specialist divisions Dynamics, Infor, Technical Communications and Kick, Secure Alan. Welcome to the Now that's it. Podcast.

Speaker 1: 1:36

Thanks very much for having me.

Speaker 2: 1:37

You are very welcome. You know, thanks for joining us. I know you've got a busy week. You had a busy day. You've got a busy week this week here in Scotland, so you know, thanks so much for joining us. This is going to be a lot of fun chatting about you and the company. So let's start back from the beginning. You told us that when you started your sort of professional career, I think you were working in the Civil Service Tax Office.

Speaker 1: 2:01

I was, yes, I was a tax man for five years. I kind of fell into that and didn't particularly enjoy it. I did things on the side that I used to do to make a bit of money and I always had a bit of an entrepreneurial spark. So sort of I went from being the poacher to gamekeeper and gamekeeper back. So yeah, the only good thing about that time was meeting my wife.

Speaker 2: 2:24

Fantastic. So you saw technology as an opportunity to maybe move forward. Right, and so you go into the nitty gritty sales commission only yes.

Speaker 1: 2:36

So I did that for a year and a half. Someday I knew offered me a role and I started chucking doors and selling to high street shops. It was very hard work. It was hard going, did it to make money, but it was a great apprenticeship into what has been my sales career. You learn quite quickly If you don't sell, you don't eat. So I started selling.

Speaker 2: 2:58

Did you know you were good at sales before you took that job?

Speaker 1: 3:00

Well, I had previous, as I've mentioned earlier, previous bits and pieces I did from an entrepreneurial point of view. It was always interesting making money probably more interesting doing that than being academic, to be honest. So I kind of fell into tax office and then I did some work around the day, released from on technology side, when the computer was about the size of a desk and I just kind of took things from there. So I got the opportunity to then move out and do some sales bits and pieces on commission only.

Speaker 2: 3:31

Wow, so you've been in sales pretty much your entire life. What are some of those sort of lessons you learned early on that maybe you pass on to some of your young sales books?

Speaker 1: 3:41

Yeah, and you can't get away from real hard work. That's the people think sales are an easy job. It's not. It's very difficult and it's very stressful. So the harder you work, the better you get at it. It's as simple as that. So having good mentors as well helps. So attach yourself to somebody and those of what they're doing and learn from them and it's a great career. You know, sometimes sales people get to look down on, but it's a great career. It's a great opportunity to especially in technology, to make money, and I've enjoyed parts of the fruits of that of my labor over the years.

Speaker 2: 4:18

Wow, that's great. So you were doing really well in sales and that's when you happened to come across your future business partner, tom. How did that happen?

Speaker 1: 4:26

Yeah, so we were introduced to another party at the time and I was a director of a business that actually went into receivership. So that was a bit hard and tough and we got together with Tom and we decided to start a business. So in the UK going into receivership or liquidation is kind of frowned upon. I don't think it is in the US as much, where it's just part of the whole learning experience. And it was certainly a learning and a tough time for me. But we got together with Tom and we built an applications business and an infrastructure small infrastructure business and we grew it quite quickly. Within a couple of years somebody came chopping our door and asked if we want to be part of a bigger thing.

Speaker 2: 5:09

Wow, what sort of inspired you and Tom to build that sort of first business. Though what was the opportunity?

Speaker 1: 5:14

that you saw. Well, I needed a business, I needed to earn money.

Speaker 1: 5:18

That's a good reason and I'm not too sure Tom will obviously watch this, but I'm not too sure he's a mentor. But he's been a certainly a help to me in my career and hopefully I've been a help to him as well, but a certainly good partnership. We've actually complimented each other. I would say he's the accountant that's kept me the numbers right and I've been very much on to Bernouro marketing background. So probably a different type of conversation you're having. I don't know if you've had many sales leaders as part of this, but that's absolutely what we are. We've built teams to do that.

Speaker 2: 5:52

Very good Technology Service Group comes along and they approached you and said you want to be part of a bigger thing. And what was your sort of strategy when you decided to maybe considering sell?

Speaker 1: 6:07

Yeah, well, I think what turns your head is kind of money and opportunity and that the money turned your head I'm having previously, you know, a couple of years before I had a business that didn't be a prosper. You know. It's just an opportunity and time to do something. I felt that time in my life. That was part of the vision that was sold to us in time and it was really good. We took advantage of that and it was the foundation of that kind of acquisition based business in Scotland and we agree that business quite significantly as well.

Speaker 2: 6:38

That's great. So as you become part of TSG, how did your and Tom's role change?

Speaker 1: 6:46

I mean, you guys still kind of stayed together, though right, yeah, so it was actually very similar to what we're doing just now. He ran finance and he was chief executive of the the regional manager director sorry of that, the Scottish business and I was sales director, so I had a sales team. We're out looking to make high positions on behalf of TSG. We grew the Scotland business pretty well for a period of about ten years.

Speaker 2: 7:10

So what about being sort of acquired that you know way back when and going through that? How does that sort of inspire you with your strategy and what you guys do today?

Speaker 1: 7:22

Well, it's very similar. You know that business had an infrastructure business and an application business and we felt that was the right way to go. When we started kick and Microsoft was going to underpin anything, we'd learned that you know the cloud was coming and we want to be part of that and Microsoft were the major players in it. So we pinned our hopes on the Microsoft, the mast, and we've taken it from there.

Speaker 2: 7:50

So you and Tom had been part of this acquisition. This was something great for you, but you decided to leave right and start something we left at different times.

Speaker 1: 7:58

I did his job for a couple of years after he left and then just we was decided to do so. I had one more move in me at that age so I was probably early 50s and I decided let's have a go at something else. And I had a couple of options at the time and spoke to Tom and said do you fancy maybe doing something? That was the start of kick. So we sat in a restaurant and it wasn't even a back of a cigarette packet, it was the back of a napkin, I think. We wrote down the four names of the companies that we'd like to acquire in Scotland and we've acquired three of them. So that's how it's been pleasing.

Speaker 2: 8:38

So, right from the beginning, acquisition. The acquisition style of growth was always under market, always.

Speaker 1: 8:45

That was it. We didn't work at an age where growth by organic growth would be too difficult which is just too tough. So we decided we'd try and acquire somebody who we thought that we could make an instant impact on. And then we identified a company called Talon and we thought we could, from operational sales and marketing, we could make a difference overnight. And that's what happened.

Speaker 2: 9:07

Very good. One of the things that you had told Stephen and I when we were preparing for this was that you didn't pay yourself for a very long time. Well, six months, it felt like 60 years. How did you prepare for something like that?

Speaker 1: 9:22

Well, we put some money in, didn't pay ourselves for six months, so that focuses the mind, without a doubt. So we had to get this right, or else we would have been I wouldn't have said facing doom. We're going to get something, I'm sure. But we were really committed and it was head down and just really gone Seller way into prosperity, I suppose, and that's what we started to do.

Speaker 2: 9:49

What were those early days? I always love this question because I have an opportunity to talk to MSPs owners of MSPs, founders of MSPs. That were very, very small. They were very, very small at one point in time and they continued to grow. But what was the business like?

Speaker 1: 10:05

what was kick like in those early days, when you left, when we acquired the business, it was 800,000 pound turnover and 132,000 pound with recurring revenue and no real infrastructure division.

Speaker 1: 10:18

It was an applications business selling Microsoft Dynamics NAV or what is now Business Central, and they didn't have really any pipeline or they didn't know what they were going to do next once they finished a project. So that looked like an easy fix to us and we immediately started selling maintenance contracts, because we didn't have really any, both on tech and on support contracts for Microsoft Dynamics, and in a relatively short period of time we turned what was a loss making business into a profitable business. But it was difficult. It's not easy, it was very difficult. So we'd come from our large organization and went into what wasn't a very nice office with marks in the walls and you wouldn't bring a customer into and stuff like that. So that was one of the first things where it was spent about money and doing the office up. I know it sounds probably quite basic, but that made a bit of a difference to everyone the morale and we started hiring and we hired against what we saw was the future of the business and we kind of got that right.

Speaker 2: 11:22

So that first acquisition was really a dynamic shop, a Microsoft Dynamics shop, and still today that's a big part of your business it is.

Speaker 1: 11:30

We've got 230 Dynamics clients, mainly on Business Central and Nav, which I compared to create plans for people watching the States. So we grew maintenance contracts out of that. We got more of them. We just applied some basic sales and focusing on enterprise to that division and we kind of grew it quite quickly.

Speaker 2: 11:57

What did you see on the Microsoft Dynamics side? That was the opportunity that a managed service provider could come in and provide training. Obviously, you mentioned the maintenance contracts. What were the types of things that you're doing for?

Speaker 1: 12:10

people. Well, initially we were looking at the existing base and getting support contracts. They didn't have a bank of ours sort of thing, which was commercial suicide. So we got maintenance contracts. In the chap who was the founder David to the founder of Talon thought it would be difficult to sell because people were used to make these bank of ours. It wasn't difficult. We just told them that's what you were going to have to have and sold the benefit of it and the commercial wasn't viable and, hey, everyone signed up to maintain this contract. So that turned things around pretty quickly.

Speaker 1: 12:40

We then looked at what these clients needed and we thought, well, we're happy to have a one-stop shop and we thought let's build a managed services and MSP business around these particular customers. And that gave us the platform. That gave us the platform Unfortunately, a new Alistair, who was previously owned Max Focus, that was eventually going to Solarlands. That eventually went to Enable and I sat on the board of a charity with Alistair and we got together and we took on the Max Focus and that's the start of the whole story with Enable. So we used I was the marketing head, so sales head chief bottle washer. But we used a lot of marketing collateral that was online and we templated it, took it out and a great success around these NAV customers. That made us look as if we're a big managed services partner, which we weren't. We had a couple of guys and we started to win contracts and build, build around duty and recurring revenues.

Speaker 2: 13:38

That's great. So you've got a couple of sort of you mentioned. I mentioned five specialist divisions right Dynamics, technical and communication security. Were those evolutions of the that your business or did you see another MSP that you could acquire that were experts in maybe security or the communication side?

Speaker 1: 14:04

Yes, so that's exactly what happened. So we started off with Talon and that was we were really keen to build any acquisition we're looking at. So a print, we were looking for a recipe, we like Microsoft, we like Dynamics, so but that wasn't the end of it. The game changer for us was we acquired a couple of really small there were about 40 clients each Microsoft Dynamics partners. The big difference for us was we acquired a company called Castle Computer Services and it was always referred to as small fish, big fish, so we were kind of three million.

Speaker 1: 14:38

By then they were nine million and we bought them and that kind of change that gave us a real, that made us get notice in the marketplace, particularly in Scotland. We're always a. Our goal really was to become the IT I know it sounds glib, but the IT Services Company of choice in the central belt of Scotland for the SME marketplace. That's what that's really what we're at, and that took us into a different level and it brought in another level of product for InforSun and that took us up the food chain and we started getting some enterprise customers to which we then started cross-selling too. So there's organic growth that's mainly based on acquisition growth in our business.

Speaker 2: 15:23

So let's take a step back. Let's talk about the acquisition field growth. So your first acquisition was obviously the beginning of kick right, no money, we pay for it. Yeah, and so when you decided, all right, we're going to keep this going and we're going to go after our second acquisition, what was that? What were what did you see? What was sort of the strategy behind that?

Speaker 1: 15:43

Yeah, it was more. It was more of the same. We wanted to add in more customers. So we bought a company called RockSap who had about 40 Microsoft Dynamics NAV customers and we just we molded them in and started selling to them and then we moved. The next one we moved on was a very similar company called Vazero, which we then melted in and then all of a sudden we started getting attention from people at Microsoft just because of the number of clients we had, which is kind of through it from there. So the SunaCounts thing, as I said earlier, took us into a different level of type of clients lots of housing associations and big boy sort of finance software and lots of recurring revenue, which we love.

Speaker 2: 16:24

So yeah, that's great. So acquisitions were definitely growth focused. That was why you were going after those types of businesses. Was there any reasons? Was there any geographic reasons, or was it mostly just in the same market?

Speaker 1: 16:39

Yeah. So if you go back to what I said earlier, the four companies that we acquired we wrote down in the back of the napkin 3B Got. It was mainly geography based, but the castle one took us throughout the UK. So 20% of their clients were in England, mainly housing associations and education based on SunaCounts. So that gave us, started to give us, a bit of a reach throughout the UK. But we're still very much a head office Glasgow, scottish based organization.

Speaker 1: 17:07

We saw the move to the cloud years and years ago and the telecoms business we acquired were two fold. One was we thought connectivity was going to be king as we moved to the cloud, so why not buy a telecoms? And that's what we do. We bought George's company. I met George in the golf course, so you know I nagged away at him until he decided that he wanted to become part of us and that's been a spectacular success from an aerial union, nothing about. But we lean heavily on his expertise and selling into our base and that's worked very, very well. Another game changer of a year ago just thought we bought a company called Concilium, which were more enterprise focused MSP and brought some really nice customers along and some great skill sets.

Speaker 2: 17:53

That's really good. So you've gotten pretty good at acquisitions. I think you're late at you're. The most recent one was just in the last couple of weeks and I think I read that that was number nine in the last eight years. Yes, that's correct. Congratulations on that. Thanks very much. Can you talk about maybe some of the unexpected challenges that you guys experienced as you were making some of these acquisitions over the years?

Speaker 1: 18:17

Yes, some of them. Usually, when we get some in our sights and we go, don't we bring them on. Some of the surprises are and there's a bit of a, there's a bit of a, I think, a reason for that. Some of the surprises have been, and the poor acquisitions have been, if the founders or the main senior management team don't join our business. That's been difficult. There was one I'm not going to name who it is, you can do it by an active disruption probably but there was one that come on and we wondered after about three months, what have we done? What have we done? And we fought our way through it. We said strong. We lost some of the staff because they felt they'd been traded like a commodity by the people who sold to us and in losing some of the staff, we lost some of the customers and that wasn't brilliant.

Speaker 1: 19:07

So lessons learned we don't always get it right. It's hard to make acquisitions because you're bringing people in their culture's different. They did something this way, we always did it that way. You hear that all the time and then we just try and put our arms around them, cuddle them and bring them in. But it's hard, it's hard. So the Consilium one was a dream. Senior management team really bought into their side and brought all the guys along, moved into our offices and it's been a great success and we've really enjoyed having them, actually really enjoyed.

Speaker 2: 19:37

That's great. Yeah, so I actually. I think I shared my background. I was part of a large acquisition in my career, about halfway through my career and we were a very similar sized MSP as the company that bought us, as the MSP that bought us. So you talk about that culture. You've got one side, the acquiree, that thinks they've got it all figured out, and then you have the acquireer that thinks they've got it all figured out, and so finding a way to get those two sides to work together is never an easy task, is it?

Speaker 1: 20:07

It is difficult, but I think, Graham, I think we probably do it quite well.

Speaker 2: 20:12

So what do you look for in sort of a potential acquisition? Obviously, you've talked a little bit about geography originally, and then more recently it's been sort of a strategic focus, a different line of business. But what's sort of on your mind right now?

Speaker 1: 20:27

Yeah, so it needs to fit into one of our pillars, so it needs to be in for dynamics technical MSP or something that's complementary. The last acquisition was a dynamics very focused business who sell membership Solution is based on Dynamics 365, but that gives us not only some IP, it gives us, it gives us some great skill sets and the power platform which I think we're gonna enjoy the benefit of that of selling around our customer base. So that's kind of that's one message. The next thing is we're gonna be looking to move down to England to. That's our latest two acquisition targets. There's conversations going on at the moment, a bit of the whole William Wallace. That's very good.

Speaker 2: 21:14

So what are some of the challenges you faced? You grew very, very quickly, right From about 800,000 pound to about a 30 million. That was very quickly. What were some of those challenges of that? Just rapid growth.

Speaker 1: 21:29

I don't know where to start on that, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 21:35

It's making sure you retain the clients, making sure you retain the staff because you spend a lot of money on that and making sure you can melt these people and plant into our ways and our thinking Some of the things like, you know, our charging mechanisms where people might not used to have been expected to pay that before, and stuff like that. You know that can be a bit difficult. I mean you have to have these conversations, but overall it's been really exciting. It's not I wouldn't say it's been bumpy, but it's been really exciting. And then eight and a half, eight and a bit years and getting to where we are and hopefully we can continue that trend going and getting to our next target, which is 50 million within the next couple of years.

Speaker 2: 22:19

I love that you said you mentioned first about retaining the existing clients. Right, it's that's probably scary for an end customer to go. Wait, who's this new logo that I'm paying now or is running my IT? So really, really important for you to get in with them and say, no, this is going to be better. We have a team of resources, of expertise.

Speaker 1: 22:37

Yeah, absolutely. And widening the discussion, the interesting one I think was Castle computers, when I was at an event in London doing a pitch to a lot of housing associations about our business and who we were and all this kind of stuff. But we retained the Castle name and identity for longer than we did for any other because they were famous for providing solutions to housing associations and they built that brand and they had built that expertise over 20 odd years and who were we to rip that up and start again? So we kept the Castle thing going for quite probably about three years and then we quietly moved over Castle power kick and just evolved into kick eventually. But and so we are sensitive to that people's association with a brand and a people, et cetera.

Speaker 2: 23:23

That's very good. So you obviously I mentioned you just you just acquired your ninth MSP in the last eight years. What do you have any motions in place today that you know are going to help you continue to find sort of future acquisitions?

Speaker 1: 23:39

Yes, so the two. That's probably going to be one of our biggest challenges and we'll probably had conversations with kind of agencies that do that, who go out and find and build your pipeline, and we will give them a bit of a prescription. But I enjoyed doing that myself. So all of the acquisitions we've made have been either family or friends. You know, it's something people have kind of went out and known and built our relationship with. It's still okay doing that the center of the Netherlands, divio, doing that, having a network, and you know, two or three hundred miles away, you just don't know, you're not knowing, et cetera, et cetera. So it's likely we have two conversations going on at the moment. People we know and we'll see how these kind of land. But I had a conversation last week with an organization who's specializing in going and, as I said, we give them a pattern and they go away and look for these and start the conversations and then I'll tell them and I'll pick these up and try and tie some into the kick fold.

Speaker 2: 24:38

Very good. So is there any advice that you would share with our listeners that might be buyers or sellers, but maybe they're unsure if M&A is the direction for them to grow their business?

Speaker 1: 24:53

Yeah, if you're selling, I think you just you need to prepare yourself that I think people get in the shock when they're involving private equity or a trade sale and making sure that your things, like your recurring revenues, are the right kind of levels are very, very, very important to kind of value. Drive the price up and just make sure you're aligned with what you're what you're it sounds pretty straightforward, but aligned with what the buyers buyers are looking to do and be realistic about the price. I mean, you're getting to a lot of MSPs and you know they know it's partners as well they might have. You know their owners or founders might be getting to certain areas. They need an exit strategy of some sort. They're looking for a safe home for staff and their customers and we've played that strongly. We are the safe people to come to. We'll look after both and I think our reputation goes before us on that.

Speaker 2: 25:51

That's great. So obviously I want to ask you what's next for KIC, and obviously getting through this most recent acquisition is probably top of mind, but what else is in the future? What are you thinking about today? Well, personally, or business-wise. Sure personally yeah.

Speaker 1: 26:06

Yeah, there needs to be an event. I mean, I'm not 15, 16, so I'm getting to a certain age. My wife retired. There'll be a certain time they'll come in their eyes and I want to go and line a beach somewhere, probably play a bit more golf. Staff would say I play too much anyway, but I play even more. So that's going to be certainly on there.

Speaker 1: 26:30

And from a succession point of view in the business, you know we've always had our kind of eye on that. I feel important. We've built a great team. This isn't all about me or Tom. I've got a great team and I'm not just saying that for the purpose of the camera. You know we've got some really structured and organization is so important. We've got a great operational board and we've worked hard at that and you know we invest in people as far as training and development is concerned. So getting them up to you know who's going to be the new Allen, et cetera, if there's such a thing we're going to have to, that's certainly going to have to be looked at because within a couple of years, I think I would like to consider.

Speaker 2: 27:07

That's great. That's great and I wish you the best of luck. I know that's obviously a difficult decision to make when it's time and where it goes, but that's. I wish you the best of luck and hopefully we get to play some golf together. That would be great.

Speaker 2: 27:23

So talk a bit a minute before you sort of sail off into the sunset. You've got years and years of experience in the MSP industry too. How, what do you think sort of next for this space, for the MSP space? What do you think MSPs are heading towards, or the direction they're going? What's?

Speaker 1: 27:41

just, I think there's going to be huge consolidation over the next few years. There's literally I don't know if it's tens of thousands or it must be close to that of, you know, 500k plus MSPs in the UK. There's got to be consolidation. There's got to be telephony and cyber is going to have to come together and we're going to see a lot more in automation. I mean, it's not. You know AI is not going to go away and you know we've got to embrace that. We absolutely have to embrace that.

Speaker 1: 28:12

And interestingly enough, in some of the, I mean we sold a bit of the business to private equity about two years ago and we're probably going to flip it to another private equity company in the next few weeks. But you know some of the talk around there and multipliers, as far as you know MSPs are concerned is it really is quite wide ranging. You know the one million sort of turnover MSP without telephony. They multiply or drop back to about a, five times, even die. It was up about 10, you know, and that's because there's not as much money and the interest rates are high and people are nervous about buying other companies at the moment. So if you do that sort of size of business. I would try and align yourself with something a bit bigger. Get together and consolidate and go and see if you've got the strength to go and play with private equity or trade sale. Make some money out of it. Go back to what I said automation and, you know, consolidation are it's the way forward, absolutely the way forward.

Speaker 2: 29:15

That's great. All right, now, my favorite question of the podcast. The last one I'd like to ask our guest is when did you know? Now, that's it, Alan.

Speaker 1: 29:25

You know, I'm not sure I've got there yet. I'm generally not sure I've got there yet and it's just. I think it's because we've got such a head down build, this business sort of mentality. I could say a fancy watch or a fancy car and all these kind of things, but it's not as head down. When we get to the 50 million mark I think we'll say that's, you know, we've done well, boys, and I'll be timing, pick up the stumps, as you say in England, and move on.

Speaker 2: 29:54

Very good, very good, alan. Well, thank you very, very, very much for sharing your story today. I wish you and the kick team the best of luck in the future. Thanks, and I look forward to having you with us this week. Thank you, cheers.